So I may as well say something before the Joe Manchin party switch rumors/hopes start to stir up on conservative twitter lol

Joe Manchin going to have a Robert Byrd kind of year; any federal buildings need to be moved to Wheeling, West Virginia?

He's more powerful as a Dem than as a Republican. He's had a better chances to switch and hasn't. I think he'll relish being a king maker with Murkowski and sometimes Romney and Collins.

Joe Manchin likes Joe Biden, and Joe Biden likes Joe Manchin.

Manchin isn't going to switch parties. Unfortunately.

https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1347597564149903360

Time for Dick Durbin to Whip him good

https://twitter.com/elwasson/status/1347624992310226944

Now everyone will be glued to Joe Manchin's twitter feed for the next two years...

A member of my family and I had a discussion about politics last night and he described Manchin as "one of the most impressive politicians of the last 10 years." I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts on that was... Idk if I agree with it if he runs and wins in 2024 then maybe I'd agree with that statement.

He's clearly one of the most power politicians in Washington now. And has been pretty influential over the last 5 years at least. Impressive has a different meaning for me. And I wouldn't apply it to Manchin. But he's certainly be influential and skillful in his politics.

It's impressive and he was lucky to win his last race in this state. I don't think he could win another in the state as a Democrat though unless he had a VERY bad opponent or the national alignment completely changed. If he did I would say he was a very impressive politician. I see him as a good politician, but not the most impressive politician in the last 10 years. He has, in my opinion, managed to avoid some common pitfalls many politicians in similar positions seem to fall into. I guess it depends on how you define impressive. He doesn't really display the raw political charisma of Obama or the tactical political skills of McConnell.

Hate em

Hate em It still boggles my mind that progressives don't understand the concept of value above replacement. There is no universe in which West Virginia elects a more progressive senator than Joe Manchin. The guy saved the ACA, voted against ACB, and ensured a Democrat majority in the senate. Democrats complaining about Manchin are like Republicans complaining about Phil Scott

Hate em It still boggles my mind that progressives don't understand the concept of value above replacement. There is no universe in which West Virginia elects a more progressive senator than Joe Manchin. The guy saved the ACA, voted against ACB, and ensured a Democrat majority in the senate. Democrats complaining about Manchin are like Republicans complaining about Phil Scott Certainly strikes me as fair to hate the set of circumstances that generates such a result and, in defense of the viewpoint, I can certainly understand the progressive disdain that is consequently directed towards someone like Manchin because of the prominent position it puts him in -- but as you indicate (correctly, I think), that speaks to VAR as against an additional progressive that would inevitably come from another constituency, rather than the practical electoral reality that Manchin faces. For progressives in particular, Manchin's role as a practical matter presents an obstacle that is best addressed elsewhere for that reason. As for Manchin as a politician, I too make distinction within my mind between "impressive" and "influential" or "powerful" in large part because, to me, the latter two are perhaps rooted as much, if not more so, in circumstance and luck than tactical skill or charisma -- "impressive" comes thereafter, in how one handles oneself in such a fortuitous position, what battles one chooses to (or not to) wage -- how one plays the hand, as it were.

If Joe Manchin where to be the most impressive politician in the last 10 years it would have required him to win re-election in '18 and have voted against Kavanaugh, although I don't think that was was got him re-elected.

It still boggles my mind that progressives don't understand the concept of value above replacement. There is no universe in which West Virginia elects a more progressive senator than Joe Manchin. The guy saved the ACA, voted against ACB, and ensured a Democrat majority in the senate. Democrats complaining about Manchin are like Republicans complaining about Phil Scott U don't get to use "Manchin voted against a Conservative Justice", AFTER he voted for 2 others (one of whom was accused of rape). Manchin is also literally killing a ton of the things the Dems wanted to do with that majority (min wage, ending filibuster). He literally had to be bullied into supporting a second round of stimulus checks. Manchin offers no value except for raising the number of Democrats in the Senate, a thing that I give no fucks about unless they do SOMETHING with that majority

It's a given that a West Virginia Democrat is going to frustrate left-of-center sentiments on issues like gun control, coal, and social issues in general. But given West Virginia's labor history and rampant poverty today, you would also historically expect them to make up for it on economic issues or the role of government. This is what separates Manchin from your traditional Robert Byrd types. Make what you will of various pork barrel projects, Byrd nevertheless preached the virtues of federal spending and a robust working class. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Manchin to profess that he cares about the concerns of ordinary people while working to kill an increase in the minimum wage or to drag his feet on fiscal stimulus. As far as being politically "impressive", that doesn't really seem to ask of anything. He's probably on borrowed time and I would expect him to lose in 2024 if he even bothers to run. He's had some luck in running against third-stringers so far and barely even beat them in 2 of his 3 elections to the Senate.

It's a given that a West Virginia Democrat is going to frustrate left-of-center sentiments on issues like gun control, coal, and social issues in general. But given West Virginia's labor history and rampant poverty today, you would also historically expect them to make up for it on economic issues or the role of government. This is what separates Manchin from your traditional Robert Byrd types. Make what you will of various pork barrel projects, Byrd nevertheless preached the virtues of federal spending and a robust working class. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Manchin to profess that he cares about the concerns of ordinary people while working to kill an increase in the minimum wage or to drag his feet on fiscal stimulus. As far as being politically "impressive", that doesn't really seem to ask of anything. He's probably on borrowed time and I would expect him to lose in 2024 if he even bothers to run. He's had some luck in running against third-stringers so far and barely even beat them in 2 of his 3 elections to the Senate. Borrowed time, that's a great way of putting it.

U don't get to use "Manchin voted against a Conservative Justice", AFTER he voted for 2 others (one of whom was accused of rape). Manchin is also literally killing a ton of the things the Dems wanted to do with that majority (min wage, ending filibuster). He literally had to be bullied into supporting a second round of stimulus checks. Manchin offers no value except for raising the number of Democrats in the Senate, a thing that I give no fucks about unless they do SOMETHING with that majority Value. Above. Replacement. I'm an anti Trump republican. I also made calls for Mitch McConnell and plan on donating to John Thune. Neither voted for impeachment, but Thune is much better than Noem and McConnell is much better than Paul/Bevin (the types aho would replace them.) We need to be realistic about our electoral ceilings in a given state and party and realize getting 60% of what we want is better than getting 0% of what we want. I made phone calls for Christine O'Donnell in 2010. Senator Mike Castle would have been a much better option than democrat control of the senate.

Value. Above. Replacement. I'm an anti Trump republican. I also made calls for Mitch McConnell and plan on donating to John Thune. Neither voted for impeachment, but Thune is much better than Noem and McConnell is much better than Paul/Bevin (the types aho would replace them.) We need to be realistic about our electoral ceilings in a given state and party and realize getting 60% of what we want is better than getting 0% of what we want. I made phone calls for Christine O'Donnell in 2010. Senator Mike Castle would have been a much better option than democrat control of the senate. Unfortnatly, Manchin won't let me get 60% of what I want given he's shit. I'm literally describing u the things I want and ur still all "Value Above Replacement". Unlike u I understand that I am allowed to critique politicians I do not like

I, of course, can't speak for Kyle. But I think it's perfectly fine to critique politicians one doesn't like, and I don't think Kyle is suggesting otherwise -- in fact, it's crucial. What I think Kyle is driving at is the perspective one can take from electoral realities within and among certain demographics -- and the viewpoint that an elected representative is, in some sense, of a creature of her or his electorate. Intense dislike of someone like Joe Manchin is a viewpoint I can totally appreciate, but I suppose I (and I suspect, Kyle) have a more fatalist view on things of this nature -- and that efforts might be directed towards say, if you're a progressive, getting a John Fetterman elected in Pennsylvania to replace a Pat Toomey. And one can absolutely do both -- I think Kyle's just trying to contextualize that.

I, of course, can't speak for Kyle. But I think it's perfectly fine to critique politicians one doesn't like, and I don't think Kyle is suggesting otherwise -- in fact, it's crucial. What I think Kyle is driving at is the perspective one can take from electoral realities within and among certain demographics -- and the viewpoint that an elected representative is, in some sense, of a creature of her or his electorate. Intense dislike of someone like Joe Manchin is a viewpoint I can totally appreciate, but I suppose I (and I suspect, Kyle) have a more fatalist view on things of this nature -- and that efforts might be directed towards say, if you're a progressive, getting a John Fetterman elected in Pennsylvania to replace a Pat Toomey. And one can absolutely do both -- I think Kyle's just trying to contextualize that. Couldn't have put it better myself! My primary critique of the Trump era republican party is a paralyzing fear among the GOP to have any substantive critique of Donald Trump. It strains credulity to believe one must never criticize person on their team. Ben Sasse's "weird loyalty to one dude" description is illustrative of how I feel. However, Pennsylvanian has it exactly right. Critiques are fully warranted. However, bad faith arguments divorced from political realities deserve to be called out. When working for Senator Romney, I would consistently hear "he is no better than Elizabeth Warren" which is laughably false. Certainly, one can criticize Senator Romney, Senator Manchin, or any politician. However, it frustrates me when the critiques are so steeped in extreme twitter hot takes which obscure the complexities of elections and governing.

The problem with ur assesmrnt is that is literally all I am doing, Criticsizing a politician. These are not bad faith because I do not like how Joe Manchin is effectively a Moderate Republican, I'm not offering some strategy to win West Virginia or anything of the sort. Just stating that Joe Manchin hrlping Republicans is a bad thing

I think Jason's point is that Manchin could basically be turning West Virginia into a hillbilly Wakanda with the power he has right now but he seems more interested in protecting the OMB from Twitter trolls. It's possible to be very happy that there's not a Republican in that seat and also not like Manchin.