I'll probably get killed for saying this here (or elsewhere), I've been disappointed to see Islam largely get a pass by the American left even when in many cases they go further than the Christian Right on social values and implementing them into government policy. I think this has happened for several reasons including Israel and a marriage of convenience over dislike for George Bush, but with an estimated 3.5 - 4.1 million Muslims (and quickly growing) in America it will be hard to ignore in the future. But kudos to Randy for posting and creating the issue. Also keep in mind Tony that Muslim societies are much more closed and crimes go un reported or we just never hear about them becuase the institutions or reporting don't exist.

Tony, for what it is worth, you are my favorite defender of murderous misogyny.

I'll probably get killed for saying this here (or elsewhere), I've been disappointed to see Islam largely get a pass by the American left even when in many cases they go further than the Christian Right on social values and implementing them into government policy. No, I agree with that, even though that's not the issue in this particular thread. I believe that ALL governments ought to be completely secular in nature. Ideally, there should be no Islamic states, Christian states, Jewish states, or whatever. Period. I would like to point out that it's not the religion itself that's responsible for the actions of select individuals, and it seems that many people, including some in this thread, don't want to make the distinction between wacko individuals and all followers of Islam. Certain people would rather paint all Muslims as savage zealots. Tony, for what it is worth, you are my favorite defender of murderous misogyny. Eggplant, for what it is worth, you are my favorite rude and ignorant Islamophobe.

Ibid

I agree w/the Eggplant. It seems that worldwide, the Muslim extremists commit far more atrocities than the Christian extremists. Additionally, there has been precious little criticism by the "moderates" in Islam.

And re: Luke's rebuttal, it would be quite another thing if the people dealing the "honour killings" (i.e, the men) protested against their own murderous misogynistic ways.

For what it's worth, I personally know Muslims who are wholeheartedly against this type of thing and have, in fact, denounced these practices.

"For what it's worth, I personally know Muslims who are wholeheartedly against this type of thing and have, in fact, denounced these practices. " I do too. They usually follow it with a caveat of "Bush has blood on his hands toooooooooooooooo" or "Bush is Hitler!" or something along those lines.

The ones I know don't, but yeah I've heard people do that.

Additionally, there has been precious little criticism by the "moderates" in Islam. The press doesn't give time to 'moderates' when it comes to religion. People here ought to know that. Look at the way Christians are portrayed in the media: they don't give 15 seconds to anyone remotely sensible, but they'll do a whole story on Pat Robertson or Randall Terry's latest idiocy. Do you think they cover Islam any differently? The answer is no.

Look at the way Christians are portrayed in the media: they don't give 15 seconds to anyone remotely sensible, but they'll do a whole story on Pat Robertson or Randall Terry's latest idiocy. Does that include the Pope? Mother Teresa?

You may not have known this, but Mother Teresa is dead and hasn't been featured in the news for quite some time. The pope is a valid example, but there is no Islamic counterpart to compare him with (i.e. no leader of all Muslims to speak for them).

"I've been disappointed to see Islam largely get a pass by the American left even when in many cases they go further than the Christian Right on social values and implementing them into government policy" Who's been the most vocal critics of Saudi Wahhabism, though? Also, let's not forget that when the Taliban first came to power in Afghanistan, it was people like Dana Rohrabacher who praised them.

I have known a number of Muslims, and they would have been uniformly appalled by this. Articles that suggest that these viewpoints are representative of Muslims in general is like extrapolating from the Topeka Kansas anti-gay crowd to all Christians.

Who's been the most vocal critics of Saudi Wahhabism, though? Also, let's not forget that when the Taliban first came to power in Afghanistan, it was people like Dana Rohrabacher who praised them. - Brian Maybe its my pro-Israel bias, but I have consistently seen Israel get bashed by the American left more and more recenlty for its governments actions and then the same bashers turn a blind eye to the Islamic theocracy and fundamentalisms in the middle east. I'll be up front about my bias and also about the fact that it kind of pisses me off about a double standard I see developing on the left on this topic. But as Tony points out, its not quite the issue of the article and even though I like Tony a lot and respect his views, his less than enthusiastic condemnation of this action reminded of my feelings on this subject. And Tony if you read this, I'm sure you are appalled by this personally, but "bunch of crazies" doesn't justify the action. But I don't have a gripe with you, just the way your words hit me in contrast to how I feel about a larger issue.

"Maybe its my pro-Israel bias, but I have consistently seen Israel get bashed by the American left more and more recenlty for its governments actions and then the same bashers turn a blind eye to the Islamic theocracy and fundamentalisms in the middle east. I'll be up front about my bias and also about the fact that it kind of pisses me off about a double standard I see developing on the left on this topic." - User#13 I think there's often a erroneous logical connection that often occurs on this topic (although it appears on other topics as well), namely that criticising the behavior of one group means that one supports their opponent(s) behavior. "The enemy of my enemy is necessarily my friend." It's quite possible for "the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy" to happen. (Not that everything needs to go all the way to "enemy" status, just borrowing a popular phrase to illustrate.) I'm not fond of theocracies in general, Islamic, Christian or other. I will speak out against them whenever they try to force their religious beliefs on people who do not agree. Yet at the same time, it is also unfair to tag all members of any religion with this attitude as many adherents of all these religions use it to guide their own personal lives and not to try to control other peoples' lives.

You may not have known this, but Mother Teresa is dead and hasn't been featured in the news for quite some time. Yet I am the rude one. Carry on.

And Tony if you read this, I'm sure you are appalled by this personally, but "bunch of crazies" doesn't justify the action. I am appalled by this, make no mistake about it. There is no justification for this. My point is that this incident is not at all representative of Islam. Do not paint all Muslims with this very broad brush, because it is not an accurate depiction.

"Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children" I think this is the most horrible part of the story, it shows these children that they must fear dissent and propagates this behavior (and more extremem) behavior to future generations. The subversion of women in this manner is terrible it teachs young men that women are dissposible and that their "misbehaviors" can be punished by violence.

namely that criticising the behavior of one group means that one supports their opponent(s) behavior. - Randy I can see your point Randy, but I also believe there is growing recognition of a developing double standard. I've seen it articulated much better than I have above occassionally in the papers mostly by jewish columnists that are also disturbed by a what they see as a distancing of the American left from the Israeli issue. I agree with most of what they have to say. Politically, for example, it has manifested itself into the fight between McKinney and Majette (which may actually prove both our points). Not an earth shattering shift in my opinion, but at least a shift I'm noticing and others are noticing. Its a trend I believe exists and would like to see reversed.

Whoa, lots of stuff happening: To GID:262 Karma Policeman: Well you can't expect the perpetrators to protest their own actions. Besides, this takes care of two problems (the other being gender inequalities). So it's kind of a two for one. Besides, all progress in the world doesn't depend on us men, thank God. And the news article itself is a positive example as well, because these things need to be exposed to the light of day. To OC in general: I think that a lot of people are confusing religion w/traditional culture. If you read to the end of the article, there is an instance of a Palestinian Christian killing his daughter for marrying a Muslim. Keep in mind the countries of origins. There are other things that factor into this. Islam is not monolithic. ...Islam in Saudi Arabia is different than Islam in Kuwait (where women recently won the right to vote/run as candidates).